I don’t think I fully realized how big a hole Tokyopop blew in the comic book horizon when they shuttered their original manga program until recently. Say what you will about Tokyopop as a company, it’s hard to argue that for a few years, they created a lot of opportunity for a lot of artists. Thanks to Tokyopop, thousands were exposed to the work of Felipe Smith, Rivkah and M. Alice LeGrow. Popular indie artists like Becky Cloonan, Ross Campbell and Brandon Graham got a boost to their careers, and dozens of unpublished creators received their first break through the Rising Stars of Manga contest.
But more than any of that, Tokyopop embraced a style of art that most other publishers wouldn’t touch—the manga-influenced one. An entire generation of young comic book artists had grown up reading the books that Tokyopop, Viz and Dark Horse had helped bring to the United States and wanted to draw in that sort of style, and for a few years, it actually seemed like they may be able to make a little money doing so.
Then Tokyopop ran into trouble, and the rest of the manga industry soon followed suit. Yen Press has scaled back their original manga plans, Del Rey Manga no longer exists and Viz, if they ever intended to publish original content created in the United States, seemed to have a change of heart. Of course, in so doing, the options for manga-influenced artists were gutted, leaving most to look to web-publishing and self-publishing for getting their comics out there.
Now, I’m not knocking self-publishing or webcomics. If done well, they can pay off handsomely for a talented creator. But they shouldn’t be the only options out there for talented artists. Yet the unfortunate truth is that the majority of western comic book publishers really have no interest in publishing manga-style comic art. And you know what? I really don’t blame the publishers. They aren’t interested in publishing that style of art because it doesn’t sell for them. Of course, the reason it doesn’t sell is entirely due to us, the fans.
Why are we so limited in what we’ll read? I’ve already written about our reluctance to sample anything not published by the Big Two, but we also need to really ask ourselves why we’re so biased against manga-influenced art. I understand why much of the Japanese manga that gets published out here may not be of interest to a reader who isn’t interested in interpreting another culture’s mores and sense of humor just so they can enjoy a comic book. But we’re not talking about Japanese manga here. We’re talking about American comics that just happen to be drawn in a style that’s influenced by Japanese sequential art.
Before I go any further, I should probably make it clear that I’m writing this as someone who was once ridiculously biased against manga. I started at Tokyopop with an inherent love for superheroes and a complete lack of interest in Japanese graphic novels. Had I not landed my job there, it’s unlikely I’d even know what a tankoubon was, let alone actually sat down and read them. It’s also worth mentioning that since leaving Tokyopop, the amount of manga that I’ve read has seriously decreased. There are titles that I enjoy, but when I compare the amount of manga I read each year with the number of western comics, western comics win by a mile.
But I still read Bizenghast. I still read Nightschool. I read Re:Play through to its conclusion (and not just because I was the editor of that series for a while). If I have any interest in the subject matter of a comic, I’ll read it, regardless of the style. So why is it that comics drawn by manga-influenced artists (other than Adam Warren) seem to always struggle to find an audience in the United States?
Unfortunately, I still think there’s a lot of misunderstanding among both readers and publishers. They hear manga and they instantly think of big eyes and flowery backgrounds. The problem is that far too many people still cling to the idea that manga is a style. Manga is not a style. It’s a format, and even within that format there’s a lot of diversity. To say someone is a manga artist is no different than to say they’re a comic book artist. And just like with comic book artists, manga artists can draw in vastly different styles.
Svetlana Chmakova’s manga art is very different from Nam Kim’s. Christy Lijewski’s art looks nothing like Rem’s. All of them are manga-influenced, and not one of them draws characters that look like Sailor Moon. Sure, it’s possible they could adapt their art, make it look more western. Being stylistically diverse isn’t a bad thing, especially if it can get them more paying work. But why should they have to do that if they don’t want to? Why should any talented artist have to?
I should mention that there ARE publishers out there who seem more than happy to hire gifted, unique artists regardless of their style and influence. Thank goodness for Oni Press, First Second and traditional publishers like Penguin. We need more of them. But for that to happen, we first need to be willing to prove to publishers that comics drawn by manga-influenced artists can sell, and that means recognizing that manga isn’t this evil, threatening entity that we must destroy before it absorbs all the shelves at our local comic book shops, but part of the family. Don’t roll your eyes when you hear someone call themselves a manga artist—look at their art. Really look at it. It won’t hurt you, and if you keep an open mind, I can guarantee that there are quite a few manga-influenced artists that you’re going to love.
At New York Comic-Con last month, I was introduced to a ridiculously talented manga-influenced artist. She showed me her latest comic (which she had self-published), and after seeing how skilled she is, I thought about a few of the projects I’m working on that are in need of artists. I asked her if she only drew in a manga style, and she said yes. It was the only way of drawing that she really felt passionate about. I remember looking down at some of the comics in front of me, shaking my head, and telling her that unfortunately, I didn’t have any opportunities for her right now. None of the publishers I’m working with are interested in publishing comics drawn in a manga-influenced style. She smiled and said she understood, and that it’s something she’s heard before.
It’s a conversation I hope to never have again.
J. Brown, I really don’t believe it’s an either/or scenario, and there can be some good reasons for a manga-influenced artist to change their style for a project. For example, I’m currently editing a Fraggle Rock comic book for a publisher who has specifically requested that I keep away from manga layouts and obvious manga archetypes. They want these comics to appear very western. Regardless of how you feel about that directive (and there are some good reasons for it — in addition to the comics they publish through Archaia, The Jim Henson Company also publishes manga versions of their properties through Tokyopop), if you’re a manga-influenced artist who also happens to be a really big Fraggle Rock fan, maybe changing your style to something a little more western in appearance is a worthwhile trade-off for having the opportunity to draw Fraggles for The Jim Henson Company.
You also mention “getting some cash” as motivation, and whether we like it or not, that IS good motivation. Artists need to eat and while it would be great if every talented artist could land on that perfect creator-owned project that brings tons of money in for them (a la Scott Pilgrim, Hellboy, The Walking Dead, etc.), most need to work some sort of day job to keep the bills paid. There’s nothing the least bit wrong with an artist changing their style for a work-for-hire project that allows them to remain financially afloat while they also work on their personal, uncompromised projects that they self-publish or put on the Web.
I love creator-owned comics, but I believe licensed and branded comics play a valuable role in the world of publishing as well. That’s why I edit them.
That is quite true- you have to be practical about art, and adapting yourself to suit what a licensor wants on work for hire projects is a pretty normal thing, especially if you need that paycheck. Some people really push creator-owned work as an ideal, which it is to a degree, but it’s also often not a big money maker [especially if it’s in webcomic or selfpublished form], and workforhire opportunities bring both cash and decent exposure.
Though that doesn’t excuse stuff like what Kate brings up, which has a lot to do with cultural fandom issues, and on darker note, racist and sexist issues that permeate across comics [just look at the hateful backlash that happened when Kate Beaton spoke out against some strange, sexist comments she’s gotten recently]. It’s clear there’s a lot of issues that are being brought fourth, and it’s inspiring if saddening stuff to see.
It did lead me to read throught my copy of Super Pro K.O. from Oni Press- very fun, shonen jump inspired take on pro wrestling with super cartoony artwork and manga-styled layouts/toning/DBZHair 🙂
The reason I think it may come down to digital, is I feel anthology based magazines (AKA Shonen Jump) Are an incredible tool in helping artists compete, improve, reach more viewers, and a place for consistent viewership. But we’ve had trouble utilizing them for our comic artists due to magazine rack practices and the unwillingness to put out a book on cheap cost but low quality paper. Digital magazines avoid both those problems, and still bring all of the benefits.
I feel webcomic rings work the same way, but it’s more based on who you know and who you’re friends with and it can get pretty clique-ish. Something I rather not deal with personally.
But I figure if we get a YA anthology going, we find our audience, we can cast votes to weed out the lemons and have the magazine evolve (something singular books TP put out could not do), hopefully under the banner of “Comics” Not manga, not oel, not indy…It’s only advantageous for us to build on what “Comics” can be. Indy just describes independent work. Manga and OEL brands are more of a shortcut with horrible repercussions in the long run.
Just a funny side note: There has always been conflict with fans and publishers over my art style, non-manga familiar usually say I’m “manga” styled, manga-familiar usually say I’m “american-indy” styled. So if I’m looking to label my art style for sake of convince I decided to call my style “SHARKFIST!” because it suits me, and i can dodge terms like oel,i indy and manga which do not help in describing what I do. So when a publisher tells me what my style is, I’ll say “No sir you are mistaken, this is SHARKFIST style. Haha.
I dont have much insight into publishing industry, so I’m most likely wrong in everything I’m gonna say, but I have to say…I as a reader, love and grew up with manga, and one of the reasons I love it is the diversity you talked about.
And during the end of TP’s run, I didnt see any more diversity, it was all action/sci fi/typical shojo, all aimed at teenagers. As a teenager I loved TP’s collection, but after 5 years I had lapped up all the ‘niche’ manga market had to offer, and went to places like Viz for the manga aimed at adults, or more slow paced/artistic/subtle work found with other publishers.
In terms of OEL stuff…I again, personally went looking in other places for western talent during the last years of TP.
I used to get excited about Rising Stars when it first happened, but the last few years were disappointing to me. In the UK particularly, our scene is so small, and I know almost every person who enters. It was disappointing to see really original and exciting artists get pushed away in favour of a copy cat artist who hasnt found their own style or stories yet- thats why I stopped buying TP comics, too many copy cat niche manga artists and not enough ‘manga influenced’ artists, who turned other techniques into their own great ways of doing things.
I dont think its a bad thing to do copy cat manga if you’re into it…but personally, as someone who has been into the manga scene right from the start and is now completely involved in the whole comic scene, once you’ve had your fill of comics, you can tell when something is amazing and when its just a shallow copy that doesnt understand the drives/reasoning behind very stylized artwork.
I buy stuff from Onipress/First second and other publishers, not because they hire ‘manga artists’, but because they hire people who want to tell their OWN stories, and dont let the stereotypes of their influences dictate what they have to say through their art.
As I said before, I’m probably totally wrong as I dont know what the heck goes on in the big publishing industries, but talking as a once enthusiastic purchaser of TP work…in 2002, I adored all the new exciting stuff TP had to offer. I still love lots of old TP work (was reading Clamp school detectives just yesterday! And have only recently discovered Dramacon after reading Svets Night School!) Come 2006, I was 17 and just bored of the niche TP had to offer. I’d seen it before, I wanted new things, I wanted to explore the other sides of Japanese cultures I’d learnt about when indulging in manga. I discovered Tezuka, Kaoru Mori etc. these offered much more then what TP was offering during the end of its time, which suddenly seemed to only cater to young teenagers.
Andre
I don’t think the backlash was sexist driven, it was more of a confusion of how she expressed the problem of sexism.
And although there are creepers at conventions making unwanted advances, I don’t think that’s sexism at work there, If you want to look for sexism in comics, you have to look at the material and the people actually working in comics. That’s where the big problems lie, and believe me there’s definitely sexism in comics (and manga too if you consider manga not comics.)
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Great blog post, Tim. As a creator who was part of the OEL movement, this topic hits close to home. For me, manga had a heavy influence on my artwork during my formative teen years. My manga-influenced art style wasn’t something I quickly adopted as a moneymaking scheme to dupe the manga-reading public, as some naysayers of the OEL movement believe, but simply a part of me, a natural expression of the material I grew up reading. An art style that was natural to me, intuitively picked up from years of reading manga, mixed with other influences, and personal touches.
For a while, it looked like the possibilities for manga-influenced artists were on the rise, until the manga market/economy collapsed. Then Tokyopop stopped taking chances on creator-owned properties, other companies followed suit, and the movement more or less died (save for the small handful of licensed properties — good opportunities, but nowhere near enough to support all of the talented manga-influenced creators out there).
Following the completion of Peach Fuzz in 2007, I went from being a successful creator with a growing career, back down to the ground level, scraping around for jobs, painfully discovering that outside of the Tokyopop bubble, there are very few opportunities for comic artists heavily influenced by manga.
The year or two following Peach Fuzz, I received my fair share of rejections: art agents telling me that while my art is professional and solid, it’s unmarketable due to a lack of jobs calling for a “manga” look; publishers and literary agents enjoying a story premise, but turning it down due to, again, the “manga” look. Eventually the message started to sink in: adapt or die.
The last couple of years, I’ve been working to tone down the manga influences in my artwork, but it’s been a soul-crushing, painful process. Some good has come from pushing myself in a new direction – I’ve definitely grown a lot as an artist because of it. For example, I’ve developed a new approach to comic pages that I’m very happy with (see Last of the Polar Bears). But it’s also depressing to look back at Peach Fuzz, and the art style that came very naturally to me, that I’ve had to sweep under the rug and hide.
Still, while it’s good to be flexible, this ordeal has given me a fair bit of stylistic schizophrenia. For example, earlier this year, I was approached by a comic creator seeking an artist for a graphic novel script they’d written. They felt a manga-style perfectly suited the story. After reading the script, I wholeheartedly agreed, and submitted some sample work. Unfortunately, their publisher did not want a manga style, so I didn’t get the job.
I think the thing that gets me the most, is that even though mainstream publishers are apprehensive about comics with a heavy manga influence, the kids and teens adore it. The amount of times I’ve had kids come up to me at conventions to tell me that they loved Peach Fuzz, or even that it was the first “manga” they ever read (!!) are too numerous to count. The kids don’t have any innate prejudices against the material–all they want is fun, appealing stories to read. Give that to them, and they’re happy–who cares whether your artistic influences are eastern, western, or both?
Given enough time, I’m sure more publishers will open themselves to manga-influenced comics again… In the meantime, should creators have to alter their style to make a living? Sorry to say, but at least for this creator, it was either that or find a new career path.
-Lindsay
@Bev, I’d just like to say that I think your comment is spot-on about how American “manga” artists need to stop brainlessly following Japanese themes and Japanese settings. I agree 100%. Americans have to bring something original to the table.
Tim, I think you’re just ever so slightly missing the point.
It’s one thing for an editor or to suggest things like: make a character look older or taller, or give them a different hair style – or to ink with more or less spot blacks, less hatching and more chiaroscuro effects, etc.
But there’s a problem when you get into the mindset that “this is western, and that isn’t” – because that just isn’t true, and it’s the wrong way to look at it. Further when you take that point of view you’re only reinforcing the idea that people who take cues from foreign comics are just imitators. That somehow their artwork isn’t as “genuine” as that of artists who take cues from (or really, actually, imitate) mainstream American comics of the past.
And it’s silly in the first place because there are things like MBQ that are thoroughly American, and have basically nothing at all in common with mainstream Japanese comics – but “comic nerd X (or probably most editors really)” will still consider it “manga” or “like manga”, simply because it doesn’t align with the American comic archetype.
And then on the other hand, you’ll have something like Calvin and Hobbes… spiky haired main character – triangle mouths (hey like in pokemon!) – and Watterson’s inking technique that is far more like that of Shonen manga artists than that of classic American comic artists… and yet I seriously doubt his editor ever told him he needed to “Western it up for the Americans”. Although these days maybe they would, such is the supposed paranoia about having anything look even remotely Japanese.
If a publisher wants something to look like X (insert whatever stylistic elements), then ok. But if they’re going to go “hey can you make this look more generically western” – they’re adopting a completely backwards and counter productive attitude to the situation.
Moreover, there really isn’t a good reason that a good artist who draws inspired by Manga should have to draw “more western” just because the publisher has decided (seemingly on a whim) that people aren’t interested in such styles. Again it’s the insular problem. Going after comic nerd X just because he’s “the regular”, instead of trying to appeal to the population at large.
This stigma that “manga-esque” comics won’t sell just because they don’t appeal to “the regulars” is patently absurd. If publishers were to stop focusing on the superficial stylistic elements, and instead focus on making good comics – then there’d be places for good artists who have adopted stylistic elements from Japanese comics (or maybe they adopted them from Calvin and Hobbes, who really knows).
Yes maybe that it is idealistic. But it’s also not illogical either.
I apologize for this largely off-topic response in advance.
Andre: I think you’ve completely misinterpreted the intent of what I wrote. This probably is my own fault, since I wrote my comment at about 5:00 AM EST. It’s entirely possible that what I wrote wasn’t written very well. So here’s my official stance on the matter: terms such as “manga,” “comics” and all the rest carry with them no intrinsic qualitative judgment or value whatsoever. However, for the word “manga” to be worthwhile such that we use this Japanese word as English speakers, I believe “manga” should be used solely as a point of origin classifier such that if a given work was originally released in Japan for a Japanese audience, then it is “manga.” It is not my desire for “manga” to denote an art style, aesthetic, set of narrative conventions…or even format! (I know, I said “format” before and I’m sorry for that. But it was late, and I was uh…following Tim’s lead!) Who published it and where is all I consider when applying the label of “manga.” Therefore, MBQ by Felipe Smith is not manga but Peepo Choo by Felipe Smith is manga.
Just because something is “manga” does not make it good, and just because something is not “manga” does not make it bad. The assignment of jargon labels based on any intrinsic quality of a given work is what gives rise to all of the confusion. As such, this extrinsic-based definition is what I use and staunchly advocate; if this makes me guilty of “hatespew” (until your reply I’d never seen anyone concatenate those two word; indeed the mere reading of it makes me feel mildly irritated) then so be it. But I do truly believe “manga = Japanese comics, where ‘Japanese’ solely refers to point of origin” makes for the simplest, most consistent, and most easily applied definition of the term there is. Jason may use slightly different criteria, which is cool by me since in the end he’s the one writing the Otaku USA manga reviews whereas I’m the one writing the anime reviews. But we more or less agree.
Tim: Even though you noted such a thing was never the intent at Tokyopop, I do think one significant contributing factor to the current mindset was their “Rising Stars of Manga” contest that ran for a good six or seven years throughout much of the “bubble” period of the US manga industry. You guys undoubtedly received hundreds upon hundreds of entries from many a creator aspiring to brand themselves “professional manga authors”…some of whom I’ve met!
But you did mention something which I didn’t really address, and that’s the stigma from the US comics fans perspective. (I don’t typically classify myself as such, and yet I’m somehow capable of describing what has transpired in Marvel and DC continuity over the last 6 years…) I think what you observed was by and large a matter of target demographics at play. As you already know, mainstream American comics are primarily written for and purchased by adults, most of whom are male. As you also know, the corresponding manga classification for this group is “seinen” [comics primarily intended for men] and the titles which the US comicbook fans you observed were more accepting of tend to fall under this category.
But the manga boom not long after the start of the millennium was spearheaded by comics not for men and women, but boys and girls. These shonen and shojo offerings were the things that “encroached on Sin City and Hellboy”; comics meant for a totally different audience than the traditional US comics reader. Since those were what dominated the new releases of the past decade, comics fans (and store owners too) tend to lump them all together into one thing. Thanks to marketing and branding efforts, the words “shonen” and “shojo” may be known to manga fans, but I speak from experience when I say most manga fans don’t even know what “seinen” and “josei” are since those terms have almost zero marketing behind them within the US manga industry. But those are the comics that’d be more likely to receive a warmer reception in the comicbook stores. That said, these days very little seinen (and even less josei) manga is released in English in the first place.
Jonathan: I know you qualified your statement by specifying “many comics from Japan,” but as a direct result of what I noted in the previous paragraph, it’s my belief that what people colloquially refer to “manga style” is by and large referring to recurring aesthetics found primarily in the manga anthology Shonen Jump. That one happens to be the most popular manga anthology of all, so it’s quite understandable that people would say “manga style” when they mean “Jump style.” But I do still strongly caution against any advocacy that such a thing as a “manga style” exists, just as there’s no “comics style.” (One could, however, make a theoretical case for a “Marvel style” of comicbook art.) I think one of the failings of many manga-influenced American comics is that the manga that influences them appear to almost exclusively be Jump properties. Perhaps it’s my naivete speaking, but I don’t think quite so many artists would be asked to make their art look “less manga-like” if they were taking their cues from say, Ryoichi Ikegami.
@Rebecca, it’s possible that if you’re in the UK, many of Tokyopop’s OEL comics never made it to your stores. Many of the global titles TP released in the last couple of years before they restructured were decidedly NOT aimed at teenagers or easily classified as shojo or shonen. I Luv Halloween, MBQ, The Abandoned, 12 Days, King City, The Dark Goodbye, A Midnight Opera and Bombos vs. Everything are just a few examples. However, my guess is that many of those never made it to the UK, which may be why you’re under the impression that TP was only putting out shojo and shonen at the end. It’s just that shojo and shonen were what sold best for them, so those were the titles that were being sold into the UK.
@Lindsay, thanks so much for sharing your comments. You were actually one of the artists I had in mind when I wrote this entry. I love Last of the Polar Bears and think your color comics work is phenomenal, but I feel it’s an outright shame that you were forced to make that change just to find work.
@J. Brown, I don’t agree. On collaborations and particularly on work-for-hire, it’s not at all uncommon for editors to push artists in different directions stylistically. I’m not just talking about pushing them away from manga influences into a more western approach, I’m talking about adapting a style that’s appropriate for the property. If I were to hire an artist known for drawing Archie to draw a crime noir, for example, I’d likely push that artist to draw in a far grittier, probably messier style since it suits the material. I probably wouldn’t hire that artist if I didn’t think he or she could do it.
I think you can definitely make distinctions between most manga-influenced art (and certainly manga art from Japan) and most western comic book art. An editor can certainly tell an artist to draw their panels on a grid with borders around the page (except for on splash pages), eliminate speed lines and textured backgrounds, pace their panels a little tighter, etc. I’ve had to do it and Rob Valois mentioned doing it above, and I can tell you, neither of us feel manga is at all inferior to comics drawn in the US. We love both.
Now, should manga-influenced artists be forced to make these sort of changes? Well, for certain projects they should expect to make SOME changes at least. I don’t think it’s fair to expect a Batman reader to all of a sudden have to read their favorite superhero title in grey screentones. There’s nothing wrong with having some expectations. But should we be doing that with comics that haven’t been established yet? Not without a compelling reason, and to me, not wanting to put out good comics that just happen to look like manga does not fall into that category.
@Daryl – For the record, I agree that “manga=comics produced in Japan for a Japanese audience,” and anything else is just subjective. But I do think that “manga-influenced comics” can be set apart from non-manga-influenced comics to a degree, here in America, particularly when they’ve been marketed & sold & packaged as “manga.”
Of course the best manga-esque comics are ones whose influence isn’t slavish, like a lot of the Oni Press titles people have been mentioning. And of course it’d be better if there were no divisions like this — “manga-influenced” vs. “Western-influenced” vs. “indy” vs. “bandes desinees-influenced” or whatever — and if everyone in comics just got along, but of course, just as when people in politics say “it’d be better if there were no divisions”, what I mean by that is IT’D BE BETTER IF EVERYONE ELSE ACCEPTED THE SUPERIOR AWESOMENESS OF MANGA, COMRADE, MWA HA HA HA HA HA
Daryl— I suspect it was probably the late night posting of your initial comments that made them sound so ranty, thus difficult to discern. As for “hatespew”, I’ve encountered far too many angry rants about manga [and comics in general] lately, which resemble someone barfing out comments, so it just sort of pops up sometimes in my dialogue. Your comment above clears things up and shows that wasn’t what was intended.
Though I think Jason’s more accurate regarding the nature of these works- “manga-influenced” comics is definitely something that’s needed as an identifier, and a class of works on it’s own. As such, it makes sense to market them to manga fans to some degree, since there’s a number of fans who’d branch onto them from that range, which is why bookstores tend to lump a lot of these titlestogether, with Scott Pilgrim next to or inside the manga displays [Libraries of course, just stick everything all in together in most cases, so there’s at least one spot with no differentiation of content, which is probably why there’s a decent chunk of kids who’ll read anything]. So stuff like Antarctic Press’s material, Oni Press’s digests [the size they often make their manga-y books, with more comicky stuff getting larger trim or hardcover releases], or some of First Second’s books make sense to get shelved with manga.
So yeah, Manga is Japanese comics, but there’s a nice solid grey area where manga-influcened comics/OEL Manga/whatever fit in right next to it that shouldn’t be overlooked, that a large chunk of the audience will just call manga, whatever nerd babbling goes on the internet about it.
Jason– I do love the Oni Press style works like Killer Princesses, Blue Monday and Super Pro K.O. that bring in lots of North American influcences to things. And the range of novel-adaptations has been nice to pick from, with many titles that skip the direct market entirely which is interesting to see.
And Superhero comic fans called everything not-Marvel or DC “indy”, whether it’s selfpublished or not 0_o I’m glad bookstores and libraries have sort of crushed that out among newer fans
PS— I suppose another thing that moves into this is that that the “it’s not manga” argument mostly comes from hardcore fans, who don’t really count, since a lot of them don’t really buy books [Shaenon Garrity made this point on twitter awhile back, and it’s made it really stuck in my head]. It’s the casual reader who counts, and the casual reader that publishers often target, and to them, labeling something manga or shelving it with the manga makes it easier to find, and leaves them with no qualms about it’s origins. And to the 14 year olds doodling manga in their sketchbooks who want to make books someday, our babblings mean diddlysquat.
And sorry to chime in again, but I read A Drifting Life recently, and the sheer amount of references to American comics in it reminded me just how long the dialogue of influences between comics worldwide has been going on. It then made me remember years ago when I opened up Metropolis to discover giant Mickey Mouses attacking the city, one of which was skinned by Mr.Mustachio so he could infiltrate them in one of the aspects Rintaro overlooked in the move adaption. And again over the past few weeks as I’ve read Trigun and been exposed to massive nerding over Spawn. Spawn. Yes, Spawn. So it makes a lot of these discussions hollow to me, personally.
A Drifting Life was such a good book about making comics it lead me to feel really inspired and churn out character designs and notes the next day for what should be my next webcomic [unless my heavily manga-inspired book proposal takes off, though reading all this makes me suspect I’ll get a rejection letter]. How intereconnected comics are globally is something fans overlook sometimes.
It also reminds me of discussions I’ve heard from Japanese artists who feel that there’s a lot of works in trendier “anime” friendly styles [think stuff like the nerdier anthology magazines], and that’s something that comes to mind -a lot of OEL people are harshest on are simply doing the same thing tackier japanese manga do, taking on a trendier anime style to appeal to a certain range of nerds. Those who say there’s no “manga style” forget that there’s stuff like House Styles in Nakayoshi and especially Ribbon that editors push a look, or the whole Moe-movement, among others.
Anyhoo, more brain innards out there among the comments, and hope no one takes all this too seriously.
[though w/the anime-style thing , it’s also a matter of artists actually liking that style as much as it is it being trendy]
Anyhoo, the more I think about it, everything we’ve been discussing falls more under a grey area than a solid “manga” or “not manga” definition. And however it rolls, it’s a shame a lot of good books and great artists are being overlooked by publishers or editors due to an outspoken minority who don’t like manga-styled works, or because of the strange, ingrained culture of superhero comics that needs to break out of it’s shell more, not just for these artists, but for it’s own growth as well. And I won’t be posting again for awhile. Hope all this made sense Tim.
What about Open Manga.
First time reader & poster here. Saw the link on Facebook. Tim’s article and the comments have been good but as a manga consumer I don’t think all sides of the problem are being addressed. Perhaps I glossed over them, but while there’s been lots of interesting discussion about the publishers, editors, and artists, I haven’t seen much of any mention about the marketing or the customers. Success or failure is just as dependent on reaching and appealing to your customer base as it is on having a quality product.
What’s the target audience for OEL? Major potential categories I see:
1. Getting American comic fans interested in manga.
2. Existing hardcore manga fans.
3. Existing/new casual manga fans.
4. People who aren’t considered fans of either American comics or manga.
1. Ain’t gonna happen. Your Marvel/DC junkie might branch out to other US publishers from time to time but they’re going to stay within the genre they like. Plus, I’ve seen several times where American comic fans actively despise manga (regardless of country of origin) due to it “stealing” shelf space at their local comic store.
Additionally, everywhere I’ve seen OEL it’s been shelved with regular manga. Not next to Spiderman. Just like men avoid the women’s magazine section at Borders, group 1 avoids the manga section. Example: At my local bookstore the Twilight manga is in the manga section; not in the juvenile fiction section. Appropriate? Yes, but it probably won’t reach the bulk of Twilight fans without also being placed next to the novels.
2. For the same reason that American comic fans insulate themselves, so do hardcore manga fans. These are the fans that look for Asian or Japanese author names (they may ignore manhwa as well). They examine the art styles and don’t buy those they perceive to only be mimicking manga art. Or they’ll buy one volume but stop there if the story doesn’t match their expectations. Like their DC counterparts they’ll tend to have favorite authors and/or manga subgenres and don’t stray too far from them.
3. Here’s your potential audience. They aren’t as biased as groups 1 & 2. They’re willing to experiment and take a chance on an unknown author.
4. A small but potential audience. These are the sorts of people who saw the V for Vendetta or 300 movies and liked them enough to buy the GN. For them to buy, you’ll likely need a marketing tie-in (movie, game) or a favorable review from a recognized source.
I don’t think these categories are strict. There will be some US comic fans who add manga to their collections just as there are hardcore manga fans who also read Batman. But I’m confident the 80/20 rule applies.
Still, OEL’s target audience is a subset of an already relatively small market. From a marketing and demographics perspective it’s pretty much by definition that OEL can’t be as successful as regular manga or regular comics.
Of course, a publishing industry in overall decline, competition from other entertainment sources and publishing mechanisms, and a poor economy haven’t helped either.
Tim–how come whenever I see broad blog posts like this they forget to mention our friend Amy Reeder? Don’t get me wrong, despite the omission it’s still a great read! Re: Amy: She’s done it all, hasn’t she? Started at TokyoPop, got a gig at Vertigo and kicked ass on it, and is gearing up for a run on a high profile superhero book.
It’s true that there are more opportunities for less-diverse artists. But that’s always been the case. It’s no doubt, also, a source of the overwhelming mediocrity in the medium. As the people with publishing experience have noted, the degree to “take chances” is mitigated by the reality in which we live. OEL Manga (you an I remember when it was called OGM for a long time–the “G” resulting from a mistake Paniccia made when writing on a blackboard, which the higher-ups didn’t notice) crashed: and you don’t need a conspiracy theory to know why; it’s because sales sucked.
“Manga” was radioactive for a while, but the stigma of that word is seriously fading at Marvel and DC. And it’ll start fading faster at other places. That being said, the point of suggesting whether artists mainstream their style is always provocative. I don’t know if I’d agree that the perception of what is “Manga” receives a bonus bias– anything “Indy” is a tougher sell. It was not easy getting approval for Amy on Madame Xanadu; nor was it easy to get Paul Pope on Batman Year 100; it took a long time to get the greenlight on Gabriel Ba and Fabio Moon’s Daytripper. Talk to Sean Murphy or Frank Quitely about the editorial ballbusting on their early superhero work. Now these creators are in high demand. Publishers like to make money, so they don’t like to take chances.
I’ve done my share of portfolio reviews. Most (but not all) artists have a finite range that can only be tweaked so much. But if you had a magic automaton who could choose to draw either like Amy Reeder or Shane Davis (both artists I love, and with whom I was invloved as they “broke in”), Shane Davis is going to have more opportunities. And by anecdote, he did–getting fill ins on Wonder Woman, Nightwing, Marvel all ages books, and Batman before his big break. Amy was farther away from the Neal Adams root on the influence tree, and as a result had less options (attaching a comics legend like Matt Wagner was no small part of the approval). Sure, small press is out there and webcomics is the great equalizer–but in those venues you have to work for no pay.
Comics is slow to change… but it can change if readers continue to support the work of manga (or indy) styled artists with dollars. Plus, the influence seeps in as new generations of artists take the reins. Matt Wagner and Frank Miller and Todd McFarlane all had very different approaches–but all have pretty identifiable manga influence…and all found great success in superhero as well as creator ownder comics.
Hmm… I dunno guys about telling creators that they should change styles or that a faithful interpretation of manga styles is slavish or wrong.
REM draws like she came straight out of Japan, and I wouldn’t want her to change at all.
Me on the other hand I don’t draw nearly as close to her with the influence and I still get problems for being “too manga” , “not enough manga” “too cartoony” or “not cartoony enough”.
I don’t think we should be sending the message, that any style choice is slavish, or won’t sell doesn’t matter what culture you come from or adapt to. If you have a comfortable drawing style, MAKE IT WORK. If publishers won’t go for it? PROVE IT WORKS, make those publishers eat crow! That’s what I say, and that’s what I plan to do.
“Oh, and Rob, I actually think it’s very commendable that you’re willing to work with artists like Emma Vieceli on such high profile books! ”
Haha, ‘willing to work’ with? XD
I know what you mean, don’t worry – but it does read funny. ^_~
I know you, Rob and I had a bit of this discussion in NY (and it was great seeing you!).
What a great debate to read! Brilliant thoughts on all sides. Thanks for sparking it, Tim 🙂
I find my thoughts on this hard to put into words as I frequently go round and round with it, but essentially, I find the labelling process a harsh one, and – like other artists I know – have definitely been on the receiving end of the ‘sorry, you’re too manga’ line…which is a constant source of frustration for me, as someone who doesn’t even refer to her own work as ‘manga’ these days, and who seems to be balancing on some kind of fusion line in terms of perceived style (and perceived is the important word in this debate). It’s comforting to know that publishing professionals are well aware that this is happening and are pro-actively looking to change things 🙂
Where this mighty litmus paper of manga is that we so often find ourselves measured against, I have no idea. I’d love to see someone convince me that tekkonkinkreet, naruto and paprika all look the same; or that tintin, spiderman and the beano all represent ‘western’ style, for that matter – but that’s a different debate 😉
Of course, the simple truth is that many of us just draw the way we enjoy to draw; an amalgamation of the styles that inspire us. For whatever reason, some of those inspired even slightly by Eastern aesthetics find themselves thrown into a ‘manga box’. Some don’t. I agree with Kate in that it often seems to be female creators who find this working against them more than male; I can’t imagine why. As you say, it’s become a word that many publishers avoid, even when it’s actually the publishers themselves applying that label in the first place. One of the most painful things about the label is the sad acceptance many of us have that by applying the so-called marketing term of ‘manga’ to something that is not Japanese, the two most likely results are: a) non-manga readers will avoid like the plague and b) the hardcore manga readers (the ones being targeted) are likely to also avoid, as it’s not ‘authentic’. Thus, we have a double-barrelled failure of direct targeting XD (I’m using generalisations here of course, this certainly isn’t always the case, haha)
Thankfully changes are happening all over the place, publishers are becoming more accepting, and creators are limiting themselves less. There’s such a wealth of talent out there that gets passed over, and – as you say – this needs to change for things to move forward. But creators also need to think outside the box. I still see kids at workshops who are convinced that they will move to Japan after school, as that’s the only place authentic manga is made. It saddens me terribly to think that they won’t even glance at the industry around them or see how they might fit into it.
I’m incredibly grateful for the position I’m in right now. I don’t want to label my work, I just want to draw stories; I know many creators who feel the same. I’m stupidly thankful to the editors, publishers and readers who let me do that.
Here’s hoping things keep moving in this direction for creators everywhere. In the words of a Japanese scholar I met on tour over there once (and I use this quote so often) “I can’t help but think that westerners spend far too much time debating what manga is, and not enough time enjoying it”
On that note, I should go draw some pages!
*group hug* ^_^
Oh, me again! It’s interesting to mention additionally that, through talking to creators in several areas, i’ve seen talented artists face similar labelling issues, nothing to do with manga. Labels like ‘cartoon’, ‘childrens’ illustration’ and even ‘indie style’ all come with similar limitations and baggage despite their apparent broadness, I know. I guess the big question is, do readers actually care? I know that, as a reader and fan of all sorts of storytelling, I don’t really stop to consider the style I’m reading when I’m enjoying a good comic; I only really stop to think about style when I’m creating….a huge survey would be great! ^_^
Tom Beedle- yes, that makes a lot of sense, I suspect you’re right there! I’ve never been to the US so I have no insight of course as to what was selected in shops over there!
I dont want to open the crazy ‘what is manga’ pandora box, but I personally feel that these terms should not be taken so seriously as to affect peoples personal art styles, as I have seen in the past (although I find it only affects people who are in early stages of art). I personally decided a few years ago to only use the term ‘manga’ to make conversations easier and when put something into a category for commercial uses!!
After all, Tezuka even got his defining cinematic use of panels from American films, japanese art should be defined only by the artist’s birth place, not by style 😀
@Brandon, right on all counts with Amy! When you think of the even bigger picture with her, and that she’d started a career as a teacher and decided to give it up to try drawing comics, her story becomes even more amazing. I’m so happy for the level of success she’s had an I know you played a part at introducing her to DC, so congrats on that. Nice to hear from you and read your insights. It’s certainly interesting to get a peek behind the approval curtain over at DC/Vertigo.
@Emma, I just meant it’s commendable that he’s willing to work with manga-influenced artists when he must be under some pressure from his superiors to use artists with styles and influences that perhaps have a better sales record in America. But rereading it, I can see how it comes off and I’m sorry. Totally unintentional. You know I think you rock! =)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You make some great points. It’s interesting that some of you feel that female artists get hit with the manga label more often than male ones do. It must stem from the fact that the majority of manga readers in the US are female, but it’s still a disappointing trend, considering that most of those people are viewing the label as a negative.
The heartbreak some of you have described feeling when instructors, editors or other artists tell you to change your style if you want to work is palpable. I can only imagine what I’d feel like if someone told me I have to change my style of writing if I ever want anyone to read my stuff or get work as a writer, and I know it would be a very difficult thing to hear. That fact that you so often hear it and respond with a smile, a word of gratitude and move on with your confidence intact is admirable and impressive. However you manage it, I hope you keep doing it because if many of the previous commenters are correct, things will change eventually and I look forward to the day when I can see more comics from Emma Vieceli, Maximo Lorenzo, Rem, Lindsay Cibos and all the rest of you on the shelves.
Oooh you were reviewing portfolios! For what company and/or projects? And can we still submit them?
@Lindsay – If it’s any consolation, I think The Last of the Polar Bears looks awesome. You’re lucky that you’ve got the versatility to be good in several different styles!
“Now, should manga-influenced artists be forced to make these sort of changes? Well, for certain projects they should expect to make SOME changes at least. I don’t think it’s fair to expect a Batman reader to all of a sudden have to read their favorite superhero title in grey screentones.”
You know for the sake of argument, there were a few comics at the store I put back on the shelf just because they were in color. I don’t personally have anything against color, as a photographer whenever the color vs. b/w question comes up I’ve almost invariably always held that color is superior in most instances. But I feel like a lot of times color is still just a gimmick in comics. There are a lot of comics out there where the color is really bad. I’d rather somebody just say “hey you know, it looks better without” in some cases. But you know it seems like nobody ever thinks “hey should this be in color?” it’s just there because it is, and that’s probably why the quality of color in so many comics is just soooo bad.
Certainly Batman fans expect their comics to be in color, but people expect movies to be in color too. That doesn’t stop the occasional b/w film from being made when it’s decided that being in b/w would benefit the movie.
If an artist works in monochrome really well – then it’d be better to let them do their best, rather than corrupt the quality of their work for the one brat who just can’t stand to look at a b/w comic.
For a long time people expected batman comics to filled with silly sound effects and inane, asinine story lines. Sure there are some people who go “batman was better when…” – but I think most people got over it.
“There’s nothing wrong with having some expectations. But should we be doing that with comics that haven’t been established yet? Not without a compelling reason, and to me, not wanting to put out good comics that just happen to look like manga does not fall into that category.”
That’s my stance. But there are many awesomely talented people out there who are getting turned away, while the publisher goes and gives jobs to some sub-par artists to do some hack work on some boring something or other, nobody really cares about or should care about. It’s kind of mind boggling.
But you know, I guess that just means more money in my wallet since I don’t have anything to buy. So maybe I can’t really complain.
Tintin, for a few different projects, most of them for Archaia. Also a couple of personal projects. I still need an artist for one project in particular, but I’m not sure if it’s the sort of thing you’d be into. Feel free to email me if you want to discuss it, though.
Hehe, seriously, I knew what you meant ^_^
having met some of the guys at Penguin now, they’re an awesome bunch who all seem as excited as we are about the books, huzzah! Here in the UK we also have companies like Walker and David Fickling who are reaching out to creators on the merit of their stories and not on what style they work in – so I do feel things are changing. I feel for any editors, like yourself, who feel under pressure to consider projects based on this bizarre, invisible comparison chart to manga style, haha. Hang in there and keep making the magic happen! ^_^
*waves at bex, tintin, Brandon, lyndsay and anyone else she knows in here*
Here’s a random thought that I might as well post here as anywhere. In mid-2007 I was talking to a manga industry editor about my thoughts on the future of the manga medium in America and the direction “OEL manga” should go in.
My model was Alan Moore’s “Watchmen” and similar superhero comics. The success of “Watchmen” and its imitators, as I see it, was that a generation (or two or three) of Americans had grown up on superhero comics. Which like manga, were once largely enjoyed by kids and teens. But as they aged in the ’80s, the readers and creators (at least a large enough percentage of them) were hungry for more sophisticated material. Thus, there was a market for works like “Watchmen,” which are rooted in the superhero genre but spread out into more sophisticated, political themes and a genre-deconstructing self-criticism of superheroes themselves.
My proposal was to publish works that would do this for manga. There are tons of Americans today who are familiar with shonen and shojo manga tropes — even if they don’t necessarily know the words “shonen” and “shojo”. One of the things that’s exciting to me (then, and still today) is digging into these tropes, breaking them down, satirizing them, and using them as a vessel for new ideas and messages, like Alan Moore did with superheroes and “Watchmen.”
However, my manga industry contact wasn’t impressed. He said “The problem with your idea is that manga readers’ tastes aren’t changing as they get older. Manga readers aren’t buying more ‘sophisticated’ manga, like seinen manga, as they get older. They either continue buying shojo and shonen manga, or they get out of manga altogether.”
And it’s true: shonen and shojo manga dramatically outsell seinen and josei manga, for the most part. Although I don’t know if it’s entirely because of age rating… I’d say that seinen and josei manga, which tend to dwell on specifically Japanese culture and daily life, may innately have a smaller overseas market than manga about fantasy and sci-fi things. On the contrary, American OEL manga could deal with specifically American culture and experiences, like Felipe Smith’s MBQ, whose sales were…. oh… well anyway. But I know there *are* at least *some* people out there who are interested in seinen manga, and in adult exploration of manga tropes. What I don’t know is why this group doesn’t comprise a large enough bookbuying audience, relative to the readers who financially supported the “adultification” of American superhero comics in the 1980s?
What do you folks think? What is the difference?
Why does Alan Moore sell so much more copies than Felipe Smith (or, to use a slightly less manga-steeped example, Adam Warren)?
Yes, I was hoping someone would mention the age factor! And I’ve also heard the same thing about josei/seinen manga not appealing to American adults. Of course, I don’t know how true that is, since I’m not an expert. But it really irks me that there hasn’t really been any effort to market to older readers. Though right now, I have no intention of leaving the manga fold (most of what I read is manga) I’ll have to admit it’s hard to find stuff that appeals to me. If it weren’t for the fact that I like scifi, fantasy, and the supernatural, I don’t know if I’d be reading manga at all. I’ve only read a few slice-of-life series. My favorite which I guess is on the border of shojo/josei is Nana. I’m really surprised how much I like it, those kind of stories don’t usually appeal to me.
Also, I currently work in a community college library and I managed to convince them to start carrying manga. Most of the students are adults, which of course, includes a lot of older teens. But there are some underage teens from high school and I think some home school kids who take classes there, though not many. So far, we have only two series out, xxxholic and Lament of the Lamb, which I donated. We also ordered Death Note and Vampire Knight but they haven’t been set out yet. (We have Twilight fans. So we carry that series, along with Anne Rice. Also Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings.)
Unfortunately, very few people have checked them out and the ones that have already read manga. No one else will go near them. Of course, not many people check out our other graphic novels (which includes The Watchmen) but they’re checked out more often than the manga. Hopefully, once we get more in that may change but I won’t hold my breath.
The OEL market was one of the few interesting developments in American comics during the past half decade or so, and one I was really interested in seeing develop.
I hope publishers get their act together and realize that human beings thrive on variety. Because I really wanted to see where this was going.
It was kind of revolutionary, what with indy publishers getting stuck in their rut, and the big two just doing what they’ve always done (with a few notable exceptions here and there admittedly, but certainly not enough) ad nauseum.
I want more new comics.
sigh.
Hey Robin, I think once more people know those books are there more people will check them out.
The Denver Library has an extensive collection of manga (several shelves worth) and those books get ridiculous amounts of traffic.
They have some American stuff there too, but the balance is about 75% manga or more to 25% marvel/DC et al. The library knows what kids want to read.
On the other hand they keep the comics for mature readers on a different floor with all the of the art books, and these are mostly American and European comics, with a few of the more adult or offbeat Japanese series sprinkled in like Happy Mania and Black & White(now called Tekkon Kinkrete).
Like somebody else above has said importers haven’t really pushed series for adult readers much…
“Why does Alan Moore sell so much more copies than Felipe Smith (or, to use a slightly less manga-steeped example, Adam Warren)?”
Probably because Alan Moore is well known, and Smith isn’t, first and foremost. Marketed more extensively second most. A theoretical “safe bet” for book stores based on the previous two things, third most.
And well basically we’re comparing apples to oranges here. Moore writes stories that are interesting to a broad audience… MBQ is about a guy who wants to draw comics… which is a far more specific topic choice than say the end of the world – or some other major event that effects a bazillion people.
We keep the manga next to popular novels out front, so I would think they’d be easy to notice. But maybe you’re right; we just need to get more out there. Of course, I’ll be surprised if it draws in the non-manga/graphic novel crowd. But hopefully I’m wrong.
@Jason Thompson: on the Alan Moore question, especially in this context, Watchmen is kind of an interesting title to be looking at. It’s worth remembering that Moore did years of work at UK magazines like 2000 AD and Warrior as well as DC Comics like Swamp Thing before coming out with Watchmen. And very frankly, I’d assign far more credit to the industry dynamics at the time – the ’80s boom in mini-series – for Watchmen being published at all. Publishers were taking chances then, like OEL publishers like Tokyopop were up until now. Moore’s talent isn’t the whole answer for why other mini-series or graphic novels haven’t done as well in the intervening years, even without the manga influence being thrown in: things are different now, the industry is different now.
So for the manga-influenced artists of today, a two-part lesson: one, that you might not get to do your magnum opus straight out of the gate and there might be this thing called compromise in your future in the meantime (sad but true: not all jobs are ideal) and two, that the industry changes. The big publishing gatekeepers of today might not be (in fact, probably won’t be) the same ones who’ll be dictating the trends tomorrow, and if you talk to one editor who doesn’t like your style, go talk to a different one. Publishers do tend to follow fads – e.g., the mini-series boom I just mentioned – and publication alone doesn’t guarantee success – also e.g., the fact that not every mini-series and graphic novel out there is an automatic Watchmen. So yeah, there’s the industry component, what editors and publishers will look at, which can be a timing issue, and there’s the audience to consider, which can also be a timing issue. A receptive industry AND audience at the same time can really come down to luck of the draw. Would Watchmen have done as well ten years earlier? Or later, for that matter?
And then, y’know… there is the talent thing. Some OEL out there haven’t been given a fair chance because of reader bias or industry rivalries or whatever, and others just… aren’t what people were looking for. There’s a lesson there either way.
So if you really love doing manga (or “manga style”; can I just say right now that I find the obsession with defining what counts as “real manga” in the U.S. very tiring) and want to create The Best Manga Story Ever, keep working at it and you probably will, although it may not be called manga by then or need that kind of niche identification by that point, because the industry will probably be different then.
Robin some of it will just rely on people who wouldn’t regularly go to the library to learn that those sort of books are in the catalog. If you haven’t had manga in the library before, the people who are checking the books out are just people who’ve stumbled across the books while they’re at the library, not people who’ve come to the library for manga.
If your school has an anime club, or japanese culture club – or anything like that, alerting them that the library now has manga might be a good way to get more people coming and checking books out.
And of course the larger your selection the more people will come by. The Denver Library’s manga section is probably so heavily trafficked because the selection is so huge… it’s about two to three times as large as that of a typical comic shop’s; that is probably reason enough for most comic readers or manga fans to stop by.
Off on a tangent again – maybe OEL would sell better if there was simply more OEL to offer? Hmmm I wonder…
@Ed — I should have clarified: I don’t mean “Why does Alan Moore now sell more copies than Felipe Smith now,” I mean “Why did Alan Moore at the early maturation his career, the ’80s, sell more copies with Watchmen than Felipe Smith does now?” Alan Moore today has the benefit of ultra-respectability, ultra-popularity and a huge backlist.
Then again, maybe it was a poor comparison, since (in addition to their totally different styles) Moore cut his teeth on licensed properties (Swamp Thing) and went to work for the second biggest comic publisher (DC), while Smith “stuck to his guns” and published a creator-owned series from Tokyopop as his first work.
For the record, though, I don’t think “the end of the world” is a more broad topic than “trying to become a comic artist.” Both are equally imaginary to most people. I’d agree if you said that “working in an office” or “falling in love” is a broader topic than “trying to become a comic artist.”
They may be equally imaginary, but disaster and violence is always a bigger draw than – well becoming a comic artist.
There’s an endless list of disaster movies for instance, but how many about trying to make comics?
MBQ was a really specific story focussed on specific characters, whereas Moore’s stories relatively speaking are epic and because of their larger scope- are just inherently more appealing to more people.
Not only that, but MBQ’s style is extremely specific, there’s nothing out there that really looks the same from any country. It’s not “manga” at all really. It has as much in common with typical Japanese manga as it does with typical American superhero comics – and it doesn’t look like anything I’ve seen from Europe either.
Considering it’s niche story and niche art, it’s actually pretty amazing that the comic is so well known.
Now Viz just brought over some really interesting titles more aimed at adults through their Ikki imprint. I don’t know what all they’re printing but so far what I have seen is again pretty niche stuff. Interesting stuff though, so I wonder how it’ll do. It’s definitely not shounen and shoujo.
And I know at least some seinen has been popular in the U.S. – I don’t know how well they sold but I remember a lot of people talking about GTO, and I know they got through all two dozen or so volumes so they must have sold ok enough.
Just wanted to say, that while at first I had a stigma against OEL/ whatever comics at first, I now have one full double-stacked shelves of them, from most publishers. And I’d definitely buy more in the future. It’s sad that some of them don’t finish, but there’s nothing I can do about that. For example, my favorite Tokyopop manga of all time is Dogby walks Alone…
Thanks for the post, Tim. It was really interesting, especially the bits where people talked about having to change their influences to find more work.
On a more personal level though, that’s something I never had to do with my own work. I’m now pretty much referred to as a “graphic novelist”, despite the fact that I consider myself still very strongly influenced by manga.
I think not all “manga-influenced” styles are considered equal. It’s possible to have a strong manga style and still somehow have it fly under the anti-manga radar. It seems that there’s some magic line drawn in the wide variety of manga styles out there and you either fall on one side of the fence or the other.
I mean, I just got back from Istanbul International Book Fair (I was a guest of the fair for “The Dreaming”, and of Turkish publisher Tudem), and some publishing people there told me point-blank that Turks didn’t like manga much because… of the big-eyes drawing style. But then they go on to tell me that “The Dreaming” is somehow acceptable for Turks, because it’s manga but not AS manga. I mean… who knows how people make their decisions?
@Anna, Dogby Walks Alone is GREAT! So great to see someone else who appreciates that series. It never got enough attention in my opinion. Yeah, it’s a shame that one never got a chance to wrap up. That was unfortunately the case for quite a few good titles.
@Queenie, great to hear from you! Yes, you’re absolutely right. Among publishers there does seem to be some sort of line that doesn’t always make sense, but it’s been my personal experience that even a slight manga influence can be enough. I feel that artists like Felipe Smith, Hans Steinbach and Christy Lijewski seem to be influenced more by the concept of manga as a storytelling format than the actual look of it, and yet I’ve had people tell me that their stuff looks way too much like anime. I don’t see that at all, but obviously some people do. And in my experience, most of those people also just happened to work at American comic book companies.
Congrats on your success these past few years, Queenie. I still remember pulling your very first pitch out of the slush pile over at TP. =)
@Ed – MBQ is also about gangstas, and corrupt cops, and Los Angeles, and working at a fast food restaurant, *and* sex and violence. All stuff which has a fairly big audience on American TV. I don’t think the fact that one of the many storylines is about a dude trying to becoming a comic artist somehow makes it especially niche or negative. Felipe Smith is giving readers tons of “fanservice,” so I doubt throwing a self-insertion character in there somehow tips it over the line into “whooooa I have no reference point from which to understand this story” zone.
Though of course the fact remains that it was unpopular. Frankly, I think MBQ was more likely unpopular not because of the “comic artist” part, but because manga readers (and buyers) in the US generally don’t like the sex and violence and vulgarity 18+ Mature Readers part, because they’re more into ninja kids and sexy vampires. The people in the US who like stories about submachine guns and hookers and Los Angeles crime generally aren’t the ones who buy manga. Except for Felipe Smith. :/
“…and yet I’ve had people tell me that their stuff looks way too much like anime. ”
Which is a pretty good indicator that they don’t know what they’re talking about. ;D Sorry, I just get a kick out of when people say that.
“Frankly, I think MBQ was more likely unpopular not because of the “comic artist” part,…”
Well I think you’re right there – but that is still part of it I think.
The reason I didn’t like MBQ – frankly – is that it was just hard to look at. Nothing in that comic was easy on the eyes. It was very angular, the lines were all the same weight – panels were frequently chaotic – your eyes never found a spot to rest on – they were constantly trying to untangle everything. It was just very hard to look at. I had picked it up a few times at the library and kept putting it back on the shelf because I couldn’t look at it. I feel like a lot of people in book shops probably did the same thing.
Several of my friends recommended it so I finally checked it out and read it. But you know, if they hadn’t I’d have kept putting it back on the shelf and never bothered to read it.
One thing that probably didn’t count against it selling more was that it was OEL.
Hi Tim! Yeah, I’m always up for sending out my art to anyone who’d look. I’d love to email you but can’t find your contact info on this site. May I message you on Facebook? Otherwise my email is tintinp(at)gmail.com
First off, I want to thank everyone that has contributed to this discussion–it has been quite the delightful, insightful, and educational read. (…It took me a couple of days to get through it all, hehe. But it was worth it.)
I write/draw my own OEL comic. I’m very new and inexperienced, so I made the decision to put the comic online as I complete it and self-publish print copies to sell at cons and what. I’m fairly confident in this decision; I’m learning, and working out the kinks in my comicking methods at my own pace and on my own terms. I feel that if I can survive this process, maybe one day I’ll be good enough to be published. (Or maybe not.)
There are other creators going this route, too. Hopefully, more will follow. If we keep at it, I think the OEL movement will see a come-back. Or maybe not, and OEL will settle into an independent scene, with its own conventions and audience (much like indy comics). We’ve got a ways to go before that happens, but as long as we keep working for it we’ll keep achieving.
(BTW, if anyone has any advice for me, I’m totally open to it. 🙂
And then there are some other parts of the discussion that I would like to comment on–
Josei: I feel like poor sales in josei are a self-fulfilling prophecy. I know a lot of other people that love josei as much as I do, and we keep having the same conversations: “Why aren’t they putting out more of it? I can never find the titles I am looking for. Why aren’t they in bookstores? Do you have any recommendations for titles?…Oh, yeah, I have read all of those.” So basically, I get the feeling that pubs are really reluctant to push josei titles, so in return people that would by them don’t because they can’t. Or they don’t even know they exist; there were a couple of years there that I had stopped buying manga (I went from buying almost 20 books a month to nothing) because I had “grown out” of what was available, but at the same time I didn’t know that there WAS such a thing as josei. Now I keep up with it and try to grab new titles as soon as the come out, but I feel like it’s more work, and I am buying WAY fewer books than I used to. Going from 20 books a month to 4 or less is a big chunk of manga sales. And I know for a fact there are others like me.
Telling OEL manga to adapt their “styles” for projects: while I feel like I have particular style that I use for my “manga” work, I have used several different “styles” in the past and would personally be open to being flexible. I don’t think that working in different styles is necessarily a bad thing, and can be an enriching process for an artist. Which is why, on the occasion, I still paint abstracts and portraiture, even though I am a “manga” artist.
Also, I feel like the manga audience is really insular, and that we should be attempting to reach out to more than the usual crowd. I feel like there IS an audience out there for things like josei, but we’re not going to find it inside of the primary “manga” audience. (Sorry to keep going on and on and on about josei in an OEL topic…)
I think the industry simply misunderstands/ignores the market. Then they claim that they’re not selling stuff because people don’t want to buy what they’re offering, so they cut back and lose even more people. Then it’s “look see we told you so”.
On a tangent, I know somebody earlier was giving TP flack for not calling manga comics… but doing so was definitely – imho – a smart move on their part, even if it seems logically backwards and counter productive in hindsight. As much as the industry doesn’t want to admit it, “comics” carry certain connotations in the U.S.; To many people comics are for nerds or the nostalgic.
When TP tried to distance manga from comics, they set manga up to be something cooler and more entertaining. Getting away from the stigma of “comics” was the important thing.
So far as I can tell, manga is still more appealing to the general populace than comics because it is different from comics (no matter how superficially).
If what people draw is any indication, I suppose you could look at a site like deviantart and compare the number of people drawing comics in the traditional school of American comic art, and those that are drawing in the manga school of comic art, or influenced by it. The obvious thing is that far more people fall into the latter than into the former – fewer people are interested in the American school of comics than are interested in manga or exploring and developing, improving comics – using things they lifted from manga.
And yet here the industry is trying to tell us that we don’t want what we want so badly that we’re making it ourselves – and that we actually want something that relatively speaking not many people really care about. The “manga should only be made by the Japanese” stigma is basically dead at this point. And when it was alive and well, it only applied to like – what – half of a half of a percent of the people walking into book stores?
It’s perplexing.
Doesn’t anybody in the comic industry think “well maybe TP would have sold more of X manga if they hadn’t just melted the pages out of a Japanese copy, scanned them and printed them into an english language bootleg?” – that perhaps if TP hadn’t adopted a fly by night mentality towards the market they’d have done better over the long term? The books TP made had a lot of problems that weren’t related to format or style… (untranslated sound effects being a notable one for instance – in some cases even when the sound played an important part in the plot or a joke).
Instead they’re trying to make the case that kids don’t want characters with cool hair (despite the fact that so called “Scene” hair was/is heavily inspired by anime and manga characters…. when was the last time kids went “I want a haircut like Superman because that looks so cool”???) – or cool clothes, – they don’t want comics drawn in a modern style, and they don’t want to read about characters they can easily relate to – and they won’t buy a comic unless the page is stacked with speech bubbles and the panels are laid out in a grid.
It’s bad enough that “comics” already have such a stigma in the U.S. – but it’s baffling that companies seem to be wanting to do their damnedest to maintain that stigma.
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J. Brown: I think this is the second time a similar point has come up in this discussion, so this time I’ll take the bait. 🙂
It seems to me that the popularity of manga-style drawing doesn’t necessarily mean there’s a demand for manga-style work by non-Japanese artists. Technically, it just means there’s a supply. If everybody wants to make “manga” but nobody wants to pay good money for it, then you don’t really have the basis for a viable business. Corporate types certainly deserve their share of kicks, and I think we’ve justly beaten them up in this discussion, but audiences aren’t just passive entities who will buy whatever publishers put in front of them. They get to vote with their wallets, and, for whatever reason, so far they seem to have voted pretty decisively against OEL.
To personalize this a bit, I’ve spent the past decade-plus working with Sunrise and Bandai on the English-language releases of the Mobile Suit Gundam series. In Japan, and most of Asia, this series is huge – a merchandising juggernaut on the scale of Star Wars. But in the West, aside from one fluke hit back in 1996, it’s pretty much failed to find an audience. Any Gundam fan will happily talk your ear off about their pet list of corporate missteps that derailed its all-but-inevitable success, but at this point I’m inclined to favor the simple but heretical theory that Western audiences simply didn’t want it.
(My bad: The U.S. broadcast run of Gundam Wing was in 2000, not 1996. It only seems like I’ve been doing this stuff for fifteen years!)